Discussion:
[Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting
François Lacombe
2014-10-30 13:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet
proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
knowledge.

Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


Many thanks in advance,
all the best.


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Art Penteur
2014-10-30 14:48:27 UTC
Permalink
A minimal remark :

Given that british english spelling is usually prerferred for tags, the
colour description tag should be "colour" rather than "color".

Art.
Le 30 oct. 2014 14:28, "François Lacombe" <
Post by François Lacombe
Hi,
I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet
proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
knowledge.
Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.
Many thanks in advance,
all the best.
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
François Lacombe
2014-10-30 15:10:16 UTC
Permalink
You're definetly right, thank you.

Furthermore, colour is widely used
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/colour

I don't know why I didn't realize this before.

Proposal and example are up to date.

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Post by Art Penteur
Given that british english spelling is usually prerferred for tags, the
colour description tag should be "colour" rather than "color".
Art.
Le 30 oct. 2014 14:28, "François Lacombe" <
Post by François Lacombe
Hi,
I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street
Cabinet proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
knowledge.
Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.
Many thanks in advance,
all the best.
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Tom Pfeifer
2014-10-30 16:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I like the proposal, and the picture is very sympathetic.

I would suggest to consider garbage collection cabinets as well,
https://www.google.com/search?q=müllschrank&tbm=isch
which are found in some towns to collect waste individually per house
and are often lockable (as opposed to public recycling containers).

Also it would be good to have guidelines at what size the structure
is considered a cabinet, and where building starts. For example
power substations could come in any possible size.

tom
Hi,
I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure knowledge.
Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.
Many thanks in advance,
all the best.
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
François Lacombe
2014-10-30 20:42:44 UTC
Permalink
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.

A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.

Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Hi,
I like the proposal, and the picture is very sympathetic.
I would suggest to consider garbage collection cabinets as well,
https://www.google.com/search?q=mÃŒllschrank&tbm=isch
which are found in some towns to collect waste individually per house
and are often lockable (as opposed to public recycling containers).
Also it would be good to have guidelines at what size the structure
is considered a cabinet, and where building starts. For example
power substations could come in any possible size.
tom
Hi,
I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet
It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure knowledge.
Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.
Many thanks in advance,
all the best.
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Tom Pfeifer
2014-10-30 21:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste

Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.

tom
johnw
2014-10-31 06:00:14 UTC
Permalink
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.

In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.

In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゴミ ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.

My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3


although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the cabinets in general).

Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been overlooked.
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as the second one has no hinges)

Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-31 08:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station"
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
The containers in your photos would IMHO qualify for street cabinet.

A waste transfer station I would expect to be some biggish plant where
trucks unload the waste, and where eventually recyclable ressources like
metal are removed before it goes to the landfill / waste incinerating plant.

something like this:
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

this is (or was) a plant from the 80ies for sorting waste into different
fractions of reusable material, it started as a pilot project but is unused
for more than 20 years now because the federal government was pursuing a
different strategy how to deal with waste then (they let citizens sort the
waste beforehand and collect it already seperated rather than collecting a
mixture and do the sorting in the plant):
Loading Image...

cheers,
Martin
Tom Pfeifer
2014-10-31 10:01:47 UTC
Permalink
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゴミ ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the cabinets in general).
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been overlooked.
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as the second one has no hinges)
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
johnw
2014-11-01 10:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it, because the one pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of it.

These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between specific customers and the garbage pickup.

They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are not public either.

Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゴミ ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the cabinets in general).
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been overlooked.
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as the second one has no hinges)
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
François Lacombe
2014-11-01 22:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with
distinction between buildings where workers can enter.

Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe
street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to
manage waste transit or storage)

man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.

I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users
won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Post by johnw
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the
area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s
stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it,
because the one pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation,
by the users of it.
These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between
specific customers and the garbage pickup.
They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are not public either.
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station"
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from
individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so
there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to
landfill directly.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゎミ
ステヌション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that
are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to
service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking
paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for
every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company.
Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are
permanent ones worth mapping.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly
by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level
(like the cabinets in general).
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal
transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet
that have been overlooked.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as the
second one has no hinges)
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've
mentioned.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two
sorts.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Marc Gemis
2014-11-01 22:30:52 UTC
Permalink
I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add new
values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New building
types are also added all the time. No need to document it right away.

just my .5 cents

m

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:05 PM, François Lacombe <
Post by François Lacombe
Hi,
I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with
distinction between buildings where workers can enter.
Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe
street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to
manage waste transit or storage)
man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.
I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users
won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Post by johnw
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the
area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s
stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it,
because the one pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation,
by the users of it.
These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between
specific customers and the garbage pickup.
They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are
not public either.
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station"
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from
individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so
there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to
landfill directly.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゎミ
ステヌション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that
are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to
service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking
paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for
every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company.
Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are
permanent ones worth mapping.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly
by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level
(like the cabinets in general).
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal
transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet
that have been overlooked.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as
the second one has no hinges)
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've
mentioned.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two
sorts.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Tom Pfeifer
2014-11-02 12:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Yes I agree, though making the definition more precise by adding the
worker-can-enter criterion should be fine.

Further examples for the street_cabinet=* vlues can be collected
on the discussion page meanwhile.
I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add new values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New building types are also added all the time. No need to document it right away.
just my .5 cents
m
Hi,
I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with distinction between buildings where workers can enter.
Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to manage waste transit or storage)
man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.
I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it, because the one pictred is
“ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of it.
These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between specific customers and the garbage pickup.
They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are not public either.
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage stations" [ゴミ ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad
of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off
the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the cabinets in general).
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been overlooked.
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge option (as the second one has no hinges)
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
François Lacombe
2014-11-14 09:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,

The vote process of the street cabinet mapping proposal has been closed
yesterday evening.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

27 users said yes against 1 no, this proposal is accepted :)
Thank you to everyone who gave feedbacks on vote and talk page.


Nevertheless, user verdy_p - who didn't make any contribution to Talk:
since RFC start - has edited the document last night as for commenting tags
usefulness.
We can't accept such methods which ruins any common efforts to get a
consensus.
I strongly encourage any responsible person of the proposal/vote process to
explain it to Verdy_p please.

I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
man_made=street_cabinet
The "street" term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be found
far from streets.

man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the vote
but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.


Best regards


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Yes I agree, though making the definition more precise by adding the
worker-can-enter criterion should be fine.
Further examples for the street_cabinet=* vlues can be collected
on the discussion page meanwhile.
Post by Marc Gemis
I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add
new values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New
building types are also added all the time. No need to document it right
away.
just my .5 cents
m
Hi,
I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description
with distinction between buildings where workers can enter.
Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe street_cabinet=waste_management
if cabinets are encountered with devices to manage waste transit or storage)
man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.
I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think
users won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?
*François Lacombe*
francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses
in the area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other
people’s stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to
use it, because the one pictred is
“ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of
it.
These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point
between specific customers and the garbage pickup.
They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but
they are not public either.
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or
without fee,
Post by Tom Pfeifer
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my
waste),
Post by Tom Pfeifer
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).
Post by johnw
I was going to suggest "Waste Transfer station"
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I
expected.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is
collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street
with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it
goes from curb to landfill directly.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
In Japan, There are static waste collection "Garbage
stations" [ゎミ ステヌション] per street or area, and are often large, steel,
screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible
way fro a truck to service the myriad
of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths -
even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every
20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones
are merely nets to keep the crows off
the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
My local garbage station (2 cabinets)
http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
although some are old and look disused, they are used daily
or weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local
level (like the cabinets in general).
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the
postal transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a
cabinet that have been overlooked.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Also, I suggest also adding "sliding" for the door hinge
option (as the second one has no hinges)
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Javbw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment
you've mentioned.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste
Garbage is less used in tags so far.
Post by François Lacombe
A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between
those two sorts.
Post by Tom Pfeifer
Post by johnw
Post by Tom Pfeifer
That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
tom
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Andreas Labres
2014-11-17 16:43:42 UTC
Permalink
yes, street cabinet is the actual name for this kind of thing, so using this
as tag seems best to describe what this proposal aims to describe. Simply
search for "street cabinet" in google (or another image search engine) then
research images for "technical cabinet" and you can see that the current name
is chosen well.
+1.

Street cabinet is a fixed technical term for those outdoor (electrical)
cabinets. Cabinet alone makes no sense as a value as it is too ambiguous (from
furniture to government). And never heard of a "technical cabinet", this looks
to me like beeing invented by somebody here... ;)

/al
althio forum
2014-11-17 15:28:30 UTC
Permalink
I agree with your arguments - my personal choice would be technical_cabinet.
I nevertheless chose to approve the proposal because I considered this issue minor compared
to all the work that went in organizing the scheme...
experience in free software projects shows that
it is usually better to avoid focus on that. I may be wrong - it could also
be a fundamental modeling issue that we will regret eternally.
I did not vote.
I consider the naming issue minor compared to the scope of the
proposal. I consider the issue important enough since it is the
first-level key of the scheme. Does it make sense...

I feel that (maybe) voters accepted a globally good scheme (just like
you). Also maybe voters are not opposed to further discussion for
refinement once the scheme is accepted but not yet in heavy use.

I raised my concern, documented it on the Talk page, signaled it on
the tag list.
My personal choice would be 'cabinet' for the sake of correctness,
simplicity and potential evolution for uses yet unseen. Otherwise
'technical_cabinet' suits me too.

I will now keep quiet and let others voice their opinion if they want to.

althio
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-17 13:00:23 UTC
Permalink
the value 'waste' is more consistent with existing amenity tagging than
refuse or garbage.
the objects that have been brought up as examples have been of private
nature, i.e. not an amenity for osm terms. I wouldn't include private waste
bin protection structures under the same tag that we use to describe
switching points of technical infrastructure like the power grid or telco,
but I agree it could also be done. As it wasn't contained in the proposal
the people voted upon, I'd prefer if including them now would be a distinct
proposal.

cheers,
Martin
François Lacombe
2014-11-17 12:36:49 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, the term "man_made=street_cabinet" has just been approved by almost
unanimous voting. Why does this discussion start now?
Because of some comments written lately on friday evening when the vote was
about to end.

The only one opposition to the proposal was regarding the term "street" in
street_cabinet.
Like you I think we shouldn't read it "overliterally" but I'm not closed to
discuss a little more around it.

The tag is, for now, described as it was voted, strictly.


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>
François Lacombe
2014-11-17 12:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Althio,
Post by François Lacombe
man_made=street_cabinet
is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.
Yeah I would rather agree.
We also have the highway=* tag to describe one and each road, not only
high-speed ways between major cities.
Post by François Lacombe
man_made=technical_cabinet
is quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of non-technical cabinet? I
guess containers and collecting points are out of the scope with other
tagging schemes, aren't they?
I agree on this point, any kind of non-technical cabinet won't be covered
Post by François Lacombe
man_made=outdoor_cabinet
is also quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of cabinet?
It is excluding all indoor cabinets, especially when they're underground,
in tunnels or whatever.
We also have a generic tag to describe features' location : location=*
Post by François Lacombe
man_made=cabinet
is very generic, can serve as basis for a lot of equipment and
applications, can be refined with namespace/subkey.
That's the simplest indeed.
If a refinement must be done, I would choose this one.


Regards

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>
johnw
2014-11-18 06:05:36 UTC
Permalink
I may have been stretching the 'Openstreetmap' case a bit.
We were discussing how to properly tag kilns, with their method of firing and how many chimneys they have, so I don’t think you off in your description OSM even a little.

If they ever retitle it - it would be “Open World map” - because people are now trying to tag and describe basically every mappable object in existence.

Javbw.
johnw
2014-11-18 07:32:30 UTC
Permalink
A large amount of values can be added to street_cabinet key.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet>
No need to complex proposal process IMHO.
updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet>

This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets.

Javbw.
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 10:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by johnw
updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet>
This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to
“Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is
not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay
cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets.
yes, they are metal boxes alongside streets (like post boxes and letter
boxes are for instance), but they do not fit the definition of street
cabinet according to the wiki, unless "waste" qualifies as "sort of
equipment":

"A *street cabinet* hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff,
while being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves."

cheers,
Martin
johnw
2014-11-18 10:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.

Javbw.
Post by johnw
updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet>
This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets.
"A street cabinet hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff, while being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves."
cheers,
Martin
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Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 10:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by johnw
Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial
proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.
not sure how that has happened ;-)
I completely agree with you that it doesn't fit the definition.

cheers,
Martin
François Lacombe
2014-11-18 12:50:44 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
John Willis
2014-11-18 13:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by François Lacombe
How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
Such relay boxes are key-part of national postal infrastructure.
I thought it fit well enough, so I voted yes. I also saw a solution to my cabinet problem as well - so I suggested the waste value during voting.

~~

Do we sort everything by function? By method? By operator? By location? By size ? By type of medium handled?

Everything eventually falls into every category. There's always going to be something about every value that makes it a rough fit - at least with the way tagging seems to be currently.

Do we need a mail subkey? A waste subkey? I don't know.

Adding a value or two to a key gets questioned as to its fit with existing categories, and creating a category creates questions of scope. It seems to be very difficult to find the happy center.

Congratulations on getting street_cabinet approved, I hope my proposals are as lucky.

J
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 14:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by François Lacombe
Automated containers for garbage collecting actually exists with kind of
- Monitoring to warn operator of an undergoing overflow
- Control to allow automatic collecting (often pneumatic)
yes, there are also systems in some places to weigh the garbage you insert
in order to calculate a fee. Still not convinced, because most trash
container enclosements aren't technical and also those that do have
technical devices are containers for trash, not for devices/tools.

I don't see the point in having telecom switches in the same category with
trash bins.
Post by François Lacombe
"technical equipment" is a generic term, not only hard-to-understand
electronic devices
It should be considered at a large sense
agreed.
Post by François Lacombe
How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay


cheers,
Martin
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 15:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Koppenhoefer
Post by François Lacombe
How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay
I have been looking around in taginfo and have found these in use:

- 1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
- 278 amenity=relay_box --> these are all from user andrewpmk and seem to
be all operated by Canada Post
- 2 amenity=relay_post_box

I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
without the "postal" prefix

cheers,
Martin
François Lacombe
2014-11-18 23:16:41 UTC
Permalink
I would love to read feedbacks on man_made=street_cabinet +
street_cabinet=postal_service vs amenity=relay_box

IMHO, amenity=relay_box doesn't sound like a postal box at first sight.
What is relayed inside ?


All the best


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>
Post by Martin Koppenhoefer
Post by Martin Koppenhoefer
Post by François Lacombe
How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay
- 1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
- 278 amenity=relay_box --> these are all from user andrewpmk and seem
to be all operated by Canada Post
- 2 amenity=relay_post_box
I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
without the "postal" prefix
cheers,
Martin
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John F. Eldredge
2014-11-19 22:27:53 UTC
Permalink
How does the term "street cabinet", as opposed to "technical cabinet", give information on the cabinet's size?
2014-11-14 10:57 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe
Post by François Lacombe
I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet
instead of
Post by François Lacombe
man_made=street_cabinet
The "street" term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be
found
Post by François Lacombe
far from streets.
man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding
the
Post by François Lacombe
vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.
I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic "technical
cabinet", as
it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an
outdoor
facility.
cheers,
Martin
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
François Lacombe
2014-11-20 09:09:00 UTC
Permalink
street_cabinet and technical_cabinet where both given to map the same
feature. They're not opposed.

The only implicit size information given by them is only that workers can't
enter inside to work as opposed to building.

Detailed volume and dimensions stay in width=*, length=* and height=*.

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux <http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux>
Post by John F. Eldredge
How does the term "street cabinet", as opposed to "technical cabinet",
give information on the cabinet's size?
On November 17, 2014 3:25:46 AM CST, Martin Koppenhoefer <
Post by François Lacombe
I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
man_made=street_cabinet
The "street" term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be
found far from streets.
man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the
vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.
I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic "technical cabinet",
as it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an
outdoor facility.
cheers,
Martin
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Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 09:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by François Lacombe
Detailed volume and dimensions stay in width=*, length=* and height=*.
width and length can also be mapped geometrically (if you are into micro
mapping) as an area/polygon.

cheers,
Martin
althio forum
2014-11-20 16:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi John, I was curious about that too.
Post by John F. Eldredge
I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic "technical cabinet", as
it gives approximative information both on size [snip].
How does the term "street cabinet", as opposed to "technical cabinet", give
information on the cabinet's size?
street_cabinet and technical_cabinet where both given to map the same feature. They're not opposed.
The only implicit size information given by them is only that workers can't enter inside to work as opposed to building.
This is a mere detail and it does not change the consensus expressed
in favour of "street cabinet".
Still I did not understand this particular argument.
Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?

althio
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 16:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by althio forum
Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?
actually you may be right, the "cabinet" part is the one suggesting some
kind of size class. The term "street" is suggesting an outdoor enclosement,
which a technical cabinet IMHO would not imply (on the contrary, searching
images for this term on the web I found mostly chinese indoor equipment).

cheers,
Martin
Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 16:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Koppenhoefer
Post by althio forum
Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?
actually you may be right, the "cabinet" part is the one suggesting some
kind of size class. The term "street" is suggesting an outdoor enclosement,
which a technical cabinet IMHO would not imply
this was btw. also what I had written above (in your citation this was the
[snip] part).

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